Growing up I read a lot of high fantasy or epic fantasy- you know, the Lord of the Rings and all the various retellings. Back then I didn't realize of course that a lot of epic fantasy was in fact a retelling of the same story with different characters and names- but at some point it became obvious. But I also read some grittier stuff- older pulp fantasy in particular. Those were nice because they were often short stories you could read quickly. But another difference was- they were earthier, immediate in their impact, and fast moving.
No tedious set up, no fellowships or elves or long quests- a tale might feature a thief or a reluctant hero, looking to survive or make a fortune or defeat evil but without dark lords and world shattering villains. Those stories were almost like an adrenaline rush of storytelling. I can't really think of examples today, although the closest may be A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin.
ASoIaF has ruined me for most epic fantasy. After finishing that series (and even before, but especially since) I have very little patience for books with magic everywhere, gods walking the earth and fireballs all over. I need my magic to be lower key, more restrained. Otherwise it's like I'm reading Dragonlance all over again (and no offense intended to anyone who likes Dragonlance- I like it too but it's not my go-to anymore). Magic should be in the background or come with a cost, should tax the user and never be undertaken lightly. It should be unpredictable and dangerous to the user as well as to the target.
Gandalf had a lot of power, but there were limits to what he could do. He couldn't just fix everything for everyone- the Ringbearer still had to his thing, Gandalf was there to help and advise. Same thing with Westeros- no one is going to just come and burn up the Others with fireballs. Sure dragons might show up and do that- but there will be a cost, it won't be easy. And think of the domino effect in Westeros since magic returned- there have been all sorts of consequences in the wake of the dragons' return. That's the kind of fantasy I like- grounded, earthier, grittier, whatever the word is.
Getting back to the pulp stuff- those tales are often just fun. And let's talk about urban fantasy for a minute. I love the idea of paranormal creatures living among us, of vampires and werewolves in the shadows. The fae just beyond the edge of vision, an old warfare that humanity is not aware of.
Now don't get me wrong. There are times when I feel like airships and floating cities and sky pirates. But for the most part I like the grittier stuff. I'd like to see more stories with vibrancy and immediacy, set in a world of city states and sorcerers. I want to see cults and temples, depraved rituals that need to be stopped, well meaning thieves out to make a buck, a band of heroes (or anti-heroes) out to save loved ones- it doesn't have to be about saving the world, does it? Maybe saving the world a little closer to home.
Do you like grittier fantasy, and if so what do you recommend? Any favorites? Or do you prefer high fantasy?
I think you would like the Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever series by Stephen R. Donaldson. :)
ReplyDeleteI don't know that series, though I think I've heard of it?
DeleteOh I loved Thomas Covenant (think it was the 90s?). Would love to re-read.
DeleteOh that's a really good description: "earthier, immediate in their impact, and fast moving." I do tend to prefer grittier fantasy. I've recently gotten into high fantasy, but even so it's not what I'd call epic fantasy because it's still smaller in focus and doesn't involve quests and whatnot. Still different from something like urban, but you get the point.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also don't like random magic that fixes everything. That's one problem I've had with a lot of witch/mage books. It's like the magic just starts getting bigger and more random as the book or series goes on and there doesn't seem to be any actual rules to it and eventually it just kinda is capable of whatever they need in the end. If there's magic, I want it to have rules. Maybe that's why I prefer creatures like vampires, they're still paranormal and fantasy and often have at least a little bit of magic like being able to glamour people, but it's small, clearly-defined magic. I think I may have gotten off topic lol.
But yeah, the grittier stuff just makes you feel more like you're there with the character. High/epic fantasy is often kind of more distant.
Thanks. Yeah I think epic and high fantasy can be different, I may not have used to think so but I do now. Epic fantasy just seems to be those doorstoppers with quests and I'm SO over that right now.
DeleteAnd yes to magic that's radom. I think that's why when a book has mages or a school of mages or whatever, I'm immediately suspicious. Going to school for magic can work, but I don't want it all the time. I want magic that's forbidden, dangerous- that kinda thing. So I think we agree there. :) And yes magical creatures, that's much more low key I can buy a creature like that more than I can magic schools and magic thrown around.
And yes I like to feel like it could happen. :)
I am with you on "ASoIaF has ruined me for most epic fantasy". That series is just fantastic and so dark, gritty and realistic. Yes, Yes, there are fire breathing dragons flying around - but there's only 3 and as you say, everything comes at a cost. He hasn't just made it that the dragons are all powerful and can take over the world. There's also the Others who currently are stuck behind the Wall, so they are also hugely limited there.
ReplyDeleteFantasy is definitely my favourite genre of them all - and I love the grittier stuff. Often I find myself reading things that are fluffier, especially now as a blogger because I'm kind of reading what needs to be read there.
I'm generally a YA reviewer and I prefer YA for a number of reasons and what I like about it right now is that YA is getting a little grittier as we go along. There's still all the things I love about YA, but also with a bit of nastiness tossed in.
Some books/series that I think you may enjoy or could try would be
The Abhorsen series by Garth Nix - that's a pretty gritty YA fantasy series built on a rigid magical system and is about (mainly) Necromancy
The Assassin's Apprentice - Robin Hobb. I believe GRRM actually blurbed that one as Hobb did GOT!
Antoher I've heard a lot about but haven't got to yet is Prince of Thornes, Mark Lawrence.
I like how you said that, "with a bit of nastiness tossed in." Yes! That's how I feel- like YA is getting a little grittier, at least some of it. I'm drawn more to YA as they publish more fantasy and sci fi, especially the darker sorts. I think when YA and urban fantasy really integrate that could be REALLY cool.
DeleteAnd yes ASoIaF has SO ruined me for fantasy- I have a hard time picking out stuff now, mostly because of the magic issue. If it looks like magic is everywhere or gods are walking the eart, that kinda stuff, I'm just automatically not interested.
THanks for the recs! I've read Robin Hobb and love the Assassin series, especially the first few. Fitz is great, but man does she put through the ringer. she is not easy on her characters! The others I have heard of but haven't read yet. Good to know!
I am limited in my knowledge of fantasy in general, but I am making a great effort to change that. I appreciate your post. It is timely as I am in the midst of deciding whether or not to start a fantasy series that I now know might fall in line with what you are describing here as far as grittier fantasy is concerned.
ReplyDeleteI hope you find stuff you like! And thank you- I appreciate it! If you ever want to talk fantasy or ask about a series I may have read, feel free!
DeleteYou know, I've never really given it much thought but you are right, I totally enjoy the more grittier fantasy you mentioned. However, my fantasy reading is somewhat limited so maybe I haven't read enough to have an informed decision. I STILL need to start The Game of Thrones books, even though not having started them apparently hasn't kept me from buying the. I have 3 copies of book 1. The mass market was too hard to read so I wanted a bigger floppier version. And they just released an illustrated hard copy which is GORGEOUS and I just had to order because $27.00 was such a good deal when it regularly cost $50.00 right?
ReplyDeleteI heard about that , I think that's a good call. You're saving money ha ha! I hope you love Game of Thrones when you read it. For me the best part is getting in the characters' heads- something you don't get in the show. I hope you like them when you get to them- and yes grittier fantasy FTW!
DeleteI used to read a lot of Fantasy as a teen. I loved the Green Rider by Kristen Britain. It was somewhat gritty with deaths of characters and magic that is specific to certain characters. However, I lost interest in her series at around book 4 because she seemed to just focus on gritty and it lost that magical feel. ~Aleen
ReplyDeleteI read green Rider! I was on vacation one summer and read it on a beach. I liked it, but lost interest in the sequels.
DeleteI agree with you, if magic is going to be present, it needs to have a balance - it needs to come with a cost. As much as Potter will always be my favorite because of the deeper message and the character journey, it wouldn't have worked if you could just do magic and not have a bad side to it. As far as adult fantasy, I'll never tire of Stormlight Archive by Sanderson. That is an epic fantasy with true darkness to it. Magic is within the world but it isn't used by everyone....nor is it used without a cost. That's my favorite adult epic fantasy. But as you know, I have yet to read ASoIaF!
ReplyDeleteYes! None of this magic flying everywhere! And if Stormlight is that good I may have to try it! I'm intrigued by the name alone (I'm shallow that way).
DeleteAt the moment I'm trying to get into Malazan. It's epic fantasy and a lot of people say it ruins them for other fantasy series. It's a very difficult book though, the first one. Apparently there's a huge payoff throughout the series. I am currently reading the 2nd book. We'll see.
ReplyDeleteFor gritty, I like Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns (The Broken Empire series), it's very dark and has an anti-hero as the main character. (Though, there's rape in the story, so if that bothers you, stay away.)
See Malazan is one I've wondered- it is magic heavy? If it is I'm probably avoiding it- even though it may be good! Interesting that people say that though- that it ruins them for other books. That usually means it's pretty good! You'll have t let me know what you think as you progress!
DeleteIt's grim & gritty for sure! The whole series has a bit of everything. There are some storylines that survive almost without magic, but the focus is still on it very often and it's important for the whole story. You have wizards, Shapeshifters, elder races, flying fortresses etc.
DeleteIt's probably not for you, as it contains a lot of stuff you don't like (Gods walking the earth, fireballs everywhere :D )
I like gritty fantasy too, but typically it's urban fantasy -- I don't have a lot of patience for most "epic" or "high" fantasy novels because they're a bit too invested in some sort of weird macho thing. I tried to read The Wheel of Time a while ago and it was definitely not my thing!
ReplyDeleteIf you're looking for a recommendation, I'd suggest Certain Dark Things by Silvia Moreno-Garcia. It's a dark urban fantasy set in Mexico City about Aztecan vampires. Sooo good, and a really unusual basis for the magic system too!
See I'm getting into urban fantasy more- I've tried Seanan McGuire and Kelley Armstrong and some others. And I am SO less interested in high fantasy than before- there's only so much you can rad of the farmboy who becomes a chosen one, all that.
DeleteThat recommendation sounds awesome. I will definitely check it out. Thank you!
I haven't strayed far from urban fantasy in a long while, mostly because it's so different and grittier to high fantasy, of which I read a whole heap much earlier growing up. Those have to be really special now to hold my attention, I think. And urban fantasy, liek you said, magic in our lives? Among us? I love it!
ReplyDeleteI am not a huge fantasy reader in general. When I do read it tends to be fantasy lite - which is like fantasy for non fantasy readers lol. I do like to read some every now and again though.
ReplyDeleteI actually think that I prefer high fantasy---maybe because I like it for the escapism. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the grittier fantasy as well. I was going to recommend Robin Hobb (she's an absolute favorite of mine), but I see from an earlier comment that you've already read her. :-)
ReplyDeleteNicole @ Feed Your Fiction Addiction
I like both - High Fantasy and Grim & Gritty Fantasy. I think I know a few books that sound like ones you are looking for.
ReplyDeleteAs already mentioned, anything by Robin Hobb.. but I see you already know her :)
Anything by Sanderson, e.g Stormlight Archive: Sanderson's magic systems are always well thought through and innovative. Also it's not all over the place. No Laser-shooting Wizard Kings ;-)
The Black Company by Glen Cook --> classic grim & gritty fantasy that focuses on a mercenary company
Gentleman Bastard Sequence by Scott Lynch --> about a group of excellent thieves. Funny & witty, but turns very dark
You should also check out the Sword of Shadows Series by J.V. Jones and the Prince of Nothing Trilogy by R. Scott Bakker.
I am not so much into Urban Fantasy either. I only like the Harry Dresden books.
Earthier and more fast paced is great! I'm kind of afraid because you mention A Song of Ice and Fire, though, as those books are just way, way long. So while I get the grittier part, the fast paced, quick read part won't really work with GMMM, right?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Milla above me, The Gentleman Bastard series is very well done, and I really enjoyed that.
You might also enjoy The Time Weaver Chronicles (three books) by Thomas A. Knight. That series is very nice done, and while there is magic (and possibly fire balls) there are limits, and the world is really complex and well done, too.
Sometimes, gods walking the earth work for me, and other times, they don't at all...
Have a fantastic Friday and happy reading, Greg!
Lexxie @ (un)Conventional Bookviews
I forgot to mention His Fair Assassin series by Robin LaFevers. That's a good one, too!
DeleteI thought of another more gritty fantasy for you, Greg, The Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. It's really well done, and the universe is very gritty. There is a pretty complex political structure in place, and I think you'll enjoy it :)
DeleteI definitely agree with you - could be why I like urban fantasy so much! Have you read The Lies of Locke Lamora? It's definitely a qualifies as a gritty fantasy. :)
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to read more fantasy, but I can't really do Epic Fantasy and things like that. It just doesn't keep my attention. I DO really love urban fantasy and need to read more.
ReplyDelete-Lauren
ASoIaF was my intro to epic fantasy, and when I started reading A Game of Thrones, I was a little intimidated by the size of the book (hadn't checked the page count on A Storm of Swords yet, LOL!. I also hadn't read anything set in such a complex world with so many characters before, but it didn't take long to become completely obsessed with the series, and, same here, I can't help measuring up all other epic fantasies against ASoIaF. I like seeing a challenging path to the endgame where nothing is won easily, and I'd say that GRRM is certainly challenging his readers to hang in there until the end of ASoIaF, lol!
ReplyDeleteI'm not a great lover of fantasy but when I do read it, I prefer the shorter grittier end of the genre.
ReplyDelete#TalkoftheTown
I always feel slightly cheated when magic doesn't obey the law of conservation of energy, myself. I like to see it followed to its logical conclusions. I'm very fond of Terry Pratchett for that reason.
ReplyDeleteI think I can read at either end of the spectrum if the author creates characters I care about. I like fun fantasy, like Poison by the unfortunately belated Bridget Zinn. I like satirical fantasy, like Discworld novels. I like romantic fantasy, like Poison Study and Robin LaFevers. I like band-of-misfits fantasy, like Six of Crows. I like unreliably narrated fantasy, like Megan Whalen Turner's Attolia series...I guess a lot of it's YA fantasy.
ReplyDeleteOOH. Ursula Le Guin's Wizard of Earthsea series, which has expanded far beyond the original trilogy.
ReplyDeleteI don't like very flashy fantasy, either. I dislike it when Fate or Gods or Random Powerful Forces get involved or when the Hero is the Chosen One with all the Gifts. *yawn*
ReplyDeleteI think you'd like Joe Abercrombie's books. His fantasy is very low-key and his writing is classified as grimdark.
That said, my two favorite fantasy series, The Gentleman Bastard Sequence by Scott Lynch and the Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss are both low on magical elements and great when it comes to worldbuilding and characters.
I think I like both kinds of fantasy - I love Lord of the rings and also love A song of ice and fire series. But given a choice, I think I prefer the grittier and fast paced ones. I did not like KingKiller chronicles though so I guess it depends on the series.
ReplyDeleteSo, I actually used to say I hated all fantasy. Which, as it turns out, was not the case at all. I think I dislike hokey fantasy- some of what you said, like the whole magic randomly fixing everything, seemingly out of the blue. But then as I delved into it a bit more, I found that I DID enjoy fantasy. I do still need to read ASoIaF, I admit that I have been scared of the sheer amount of pages. But I have the first two books so... might as well. At some point haha. I think if I had to pick, I'd probably go with grittier too, though if I love the characters I can kind of overlook it a bit.
ReplyDeleteI read a lot of epic fantasy when I was younger and it was almost the only thing I read and kinda burned myself out on them after a while. My favorite where Terry Brooks her Shannara books and the Wheel of Time series. But then I had to wait for the next book to be released and forgot everything of the previous books and I never read the last 3 books because of that.
ReplyDeleteNowadays I rarely read epic fantasy anymore, probably because I used to read so much of it. I did recently watched the lord of the rings movies.
I also prefer magic to be more low key and have a cost. Nowadays I usually prefer urban fantasy as it's more down to earth and less epic and big scale.
Fantasy is not really my preferred genre. I've watched Lord of the Rings, but have not (and probably never will) read the books. Sorry, no recommendations from me here, but thank you very much for linking your post to #TalkoftheTown :-).
ReplyDelete